Muslim Population

326 comments

1. Ajay:

   the census by Govt of India is not reliable.

   It probably isn’t, but my contention is that it is the best available estimate. Has there been any systematic study of the errors and biases in the Indian census? I know that statisticians in the US use statistical analysis to estimate the true population from census person counts and population samples. The general idea is that some parts of the population, like immigrants, minorities and the poor, are not fully counted in a person count.

   you too gave your religious bias away when you wrote that it is not proper to discuss which nation (India or Pakistan) is ‘marginally’ better in treating minorities.

   My point in saying that was not a quantitative analysis. For one thing, I don’t think this is the thread to discuss the treatment of minorities in India and Pakistan. For another, in both countries there have been lots of problems with minority rights over the years. While India might be better, its record is nothing to be proud of.

2. To all my Indian Friends ( irrespective of religion, caste, creed etc.),

   Though the topic discussed here is about percentage of Muslim population in India, I would like to
   take the liberty of drawing your attention to other realities faced by majority of Indians now and those which they may face in future :

   1) Even after 57 years of independence, we are still debating on the population demography in India. Instead we are forgetting the following facts:
   (i) More than 30 of our population lives below poverty line. This figure has remained

   unchanged for 5 decades. The rest ( barring rich and upper middle class) are struggling

   daily to meet both ends.

   (ii) Lack of proper Medical facilities and very few Hospitals.

   (iii) Rising cost of basic amenities, medicines and education.

   (iv) Unemployment problem due to large population.

   (v) A very small portion of rich people (whether Hindus or Muslims) maintain autonomy

   over everything and keep on multiplying money, it is middle class & poor who suffers

   because of their manipulative practices.

   (v) Lack of water and power supply.

   (vi) Add to this, we have a growing population of AIDs victims. As per govt. figures, in many

   pockets, it has scaled to more than 2 of the region’s population. Hence, actual figures
   could be higher. Every one will agree that it could cause a havoc if this trend continues.

   All the above problems are affecting Hindus & Muslims alike. And we are arguing over
   trivial issues.

   (2) As for India becoming a Muslim country. If it makes India a prosperous, healthy and society
   free of violence, then I would be glad to be a Muslim in such an India. But wait! Wasn’t Pakistan
   supposed to be a heaven for Muslims? But where it is now. The Bangladeshis willingly separated
   due to atrocities from their Muslim brothers. Even with lower population density than India, it
   has been a failure even though it was created with great hope from many Muslim leaders.
   Frequently we hear of bomb blasts in a …… mosque killing ……, in a purely Muslim state!
   Are Indian Muslims really treated as their brothers? or simply regarded as Moha…..( sorry)
   I had heard from two Aga Khanis that certain clergymen in Pakistan were demanding to
   banish (Aga Khanis, Isamilies ) from Pakistan. Believe me this is what I heard and even I was
   surprised.

   The truth is that the inherent divisive characteristics of Hindus remained with them even after they
   converted to Islam.

   Similarly, a so called Hindu rashtra is not going to take India anywhere. The consequences
   will be bad. Already, it is infested with caste differences. Hindu society is the only one in the
   world which authorises caste distiction. Over and above this, rich Hindus exploit their poor brethrens severely and rob them of their rightful means. ( Baniyas, Builders, Zamindar etc.)
   There is no limit of their greediness and rapacity. ( Squeezing the nation thru’ manipulative
   practices as if everything belongs to them only).

   Truth is that even if India remains as it is, or gets divided once again ,or becomes
   a Muslim nation, the inhabitants will not really be benefitted unless they succeed
   in achieving what is really to be achieved. It will then be ignored by the world, lagging
   behind with problems without solutions.

   Hence, imagine such a state alongwith all above ( economic, health etc problems).

   Is this what we are wishing for ourselves and our future generation?

   Regards

3. As-salamwalikum
   I am an Indian Muslim living in the city of Hyderabad. Regarding the population of muslims in India, I would say a fair estimate would be between 16% – 20%. I say this because i have travelled a lot throughout India and was frankly surprised to find muslims in some places. Evey village and every city has a sizeable population of muslims living within it. Now although hyderbad and its surrounding areas have abt 40% muslim population, the state of Andhra Pradesh has 15% muslim population.
   As far as treatment of muslims in India is concered I would say all this talk about persecution is false. Agreed there are biased people here and you can find them but that is only because this is such a vast country with so many different peoples and cultures. I am no fan of India but I would say that we feel pretty safe here. There is a high handed way the police deal with people here but I think it is the same for hindus and muslims (although you can argue that muslims are meted out a little more unfair treatment). But on the whole its a great place to be in (ie hyderabad) and the only reason i can think of why muslims are so backward here is not because of Islam or muslim lack of intellect but more because there is an unwillingness to work hard and achieve something. I can say this because I am in engineering college for muslims and the situation here is absolutely abhorable. All said and done there slowly seems to be a desire to work hard now. That spark which was lacking for such a long time has been ignited and inshallah we will work hard and achieve our goals and be a postive growth for our society. Inshallah and pray for all muslims and humanity.

4. finally, is it all over?

5. nanik: Please don’t post other people’s essays in the comments. A link to the essay would have been better. I have replaced the text with a link.

6. During 1947 there were 35% hindus in Bangladesh. Now we are 10%. What happent to those 25% hindus? Most of them were killed my muslims. Some of them were migrated to India. Whereas during 1947 the percentage of muslim was less than 13% in India. Now they are increasing. I do not know why donot they killed by hindus or kicked out India to fucking Pakistan. Bastard muslims.Fuck muslim. Fuck Quran. Fuck Arab

7. Biswajit: Watch your language.

   On the content of your comment, I have also heard that the percentage of Hindus in Bangladesh has been decreasing, though I don’t know by how much. Regardless of the numbers, it is definitely not a good thing.

8. I believe this post was originally about census numbers. However, as is almost to be expected in any India-Pakistan debate, this has basically turned into a mud-slinging test match.

   For my part, I believe that census data is way too obsolete at best and grossly inaccurate at worst. However I agree with Zack that for the want of a statistically more reliable alternative, the census data certainly is the “lesser evil”.

   Although I am currently a resident of US, I have travelled extensively within India and it is my personal opinion (also seems that it is the opinion of a number of people who have posted their views here) that the population of Indian muslims is grossly under-stated in official figures. However in response to some of the comments regarding India becoming a Muslim state – I have to say “happy day dreaming” because if India couldn’t be converted into a Muslim state in the better part of a 1000 years that it has suffered Islamic aggression, it is hard to believe that it will happen any time soon in the future!

9. Hey people

   i would like to say that all people writte that indian muslim papulation is 3rd largest religion in the world and it’s not true they are not 3rd largest indian muslim papulation becuase indian muslim papulation have grow up to 250 million.
   They are over 250 million living in india. Muslim papulation is nearly to 300 millon. They have take indonesian muslim papulation. Indian muslim papulation it’s world’s largest.

10. After perusing the comments, I’d say that it’s probable that the Indian Muslim population stands at about 15% and the not absurd 13% or 25% which are the inputs of biased individuals. As far as Islam becoming the world’s no.1 religion or of India becoming a Muslim majority nation is concerned, it certainly cannot come about as the law governing the cosmos in all its aspects is “Unity Underlying Diversity”.

    In fact, as far as the world following a standard faith is concerned, the only idea that comes closest is that of Self-Realisation.

    If Self-Realisation becomes the world’s religion, it would unite mankind on subtler planes of Cosmic Consciousness as never before and drive out all those myths of the so-called superiority of any single religion over others.

    With Self-Realisation as the world’s highest faith, Truth would be known first hand, as a matter of direct experiences, without the need to rely on some superficial book theories, half of which are false with the rest being shown to be mundane or common sense knowledge.

    Then the need to demographically compete would disappear as all would value Truth as a matter of actual realisations without having to merely become slaves of mythical/unprovable book claims.

    By the way, Allah is an original Vedic-Sanskrit word which means the Impersonal Cosmic Masculine Consciousness which is a manifestation of the supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness (God).

    Besides, Eid, Kaaba, Hajj, Ra, Mam, Mim, Ain,Hajj, circumambulation of a stone pillar during Hajj, Tonsuring the head, clipping the hair, donning seamless garments and so many other key Islamic terms/customs are of Vedic origin.

    And, above all, the Vedas are the only holy books to preach Reality in terms of the laws of Cosmic Consciousness and their varied gradations right down to matter. Quantum mechanics is slowly arriving at the same conclusion but the Vedas give out incisive details of Consciousness (as a graded manifested Consciousness-Force) that far surpasses any scientific exposition.

    With the Semitic religions, God is extra-cosmic, creation occured out of nothing,heavens are undefinable places in the clouds or out of the universe and so on.

    These absurdities are to be found in the Semitic books as they make not a single mention of Consciousness (as the underlying Reality of matter and of everything else). Ok Arsalan,
    Javed?

    Warm Regards,

    Joel P

11. Considering the naked disdain many Indian Muslim commentators on this site have for other communities,including for their own motherland, which is evident in their wishes that the world becomes Muslim or India gets converted into an Islamic nation, I would like to first of all query their source of beliefs.

    How come you guys come to believe every fiction on the basis of uncorroborated book beliefs?

    Just because a book blindly preaches something, why do you blindly believe what it says without employing a minimum rationality to at least theoretically verify its claims?

    Practically speaking, nothing of the Quranic claims regarding creation out of nothing, creation in 6-8 days, virgin birth, winged horses, rivers of wine/milk/honey in heaven, boiling water in hell, whores in heaven and the rest makes sense (allegorically or otherwise) or can ever be proved.

    If you guys can not answer a single query by using a little subtler rationality and if the Quran or any other book can not even define what heaven, hell or soul, etc, is in terms of their repective materio-functional basis and how they connect among themselves and how they link up with matter, then does it make sense to keep repeating all this gibberish?

    What are the cosmic materials and forces of your heaven, hell, soul, etc, composed of? How do they connect with each other and with mind, vital, emotions and matter?

    Underlying all diversity is Unity, do not forget this. Otherwise nothing could exist.

    Do your uncorroborated religious beliefs answer any of these simple but fundamental qustions? Obviously, the answer is NO.

    So, how can you claim that what you believe in is superior or even true?

    And, do not bring Consciousness into the picture to answer the above queries related to the supra physical and its connections with matter.

    Rememeber, not to quote Consciousness/Consciousnes-Force as your answer as none of the Semitic Books even mention Consciousness, nor do these dualistic Semitic Books explain things in a causal manner leading up to a Absolute Untiy as in expositions on monism in which finally it is declared, as science has discovered on the material plane, that unity underlies every phenomenon (physical or supra physical – everything is a graded manifestation of an Absolute Conscient Source).

    Islam talks of God as extra-cosmic as if it is ever possible for cause to exist independent of effect. The effect is nothing but the cause in graded manifestation.

    So, before rushing off to blindly quote a book, first check whether its teachings make cosmic and causal sense.

    Finally, no one can even prove that Adham, Ibrahim, Ilyas, Isa, Musa, Yunus and the rest were historical characters. So, how do you believe in them?

    MORAL: Leave demographics and calls to convert ot Islam aside, first focus on verifying whether your religious beliefs are rational and provable or are they purely fictional.

    Regards,

    Joel

12. salam to all brothers and sisters,

    firstly in reply to joel i would say that Quaran is a perfect Book and many islamic scholars have challenged any one to prove even a single fault in it. for more info on this check out http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027 . this website will even clarify your own beliefs about hinduism.

    Also i have noticed that there are only non-muslim people here who are directly abusing islam and musims. like comments made by joel pastakia, Biswajit and a few others.. only in a forum they cannot accept the muslim views and (incorrect)population statistics…..so imagine these type of people us minorities have to face everyday in India.

    Its disgraceful to see people talk like that…

    Also in reply to comments made by people who think muslims are ruthless killing machines and terrorists and they kill people and hindus.

    can any one explain to me how come there are more hindus in india than muslims even after the mughals and muslims have ruled over india for 100s of year. Mulims have always been tolerant and islam is the most tolerant religion in the world is proved by the huge population of hindus in india even after india beinf ruled by MUGHALS AND MUSLIMS FOR YEAR.

    In a message to no muslims i would like to say is that…..SEE WHAT HAPPENNED TO MUSLIMS IN SPAIN WHEN THE CHRISTIANS TOOK OVER..NOW ONLY AROUND 1%MUSLIMs REMIAN THERE….YOU SHOULD BE THANKFUL TO THE PREACHING OF ISLAM THAT YOU ARE STILL IN INDIA EVEN AFTER MUSLIMS RULED OVER INDIA FOR 100’S AND 100’S OF YEAR.

    Jasakalla khair.

    Danish

13. In response to Mr Jasakhalla Khair who blindly parrots the claim that the Quran is a perfect book that remains unchallenged in its wisdom, I repeat that what I said in my previous mails more than breaks this blind belief of the so-called infallibility of the Quran.

    Firstly, not a single key concept, terminology or ritual is original in the Quran. For instance, Allah, Eid, Kabba, Ra,Mam, Mim, Sim, Rabi, Hajj, sangmay aswad and many others are borrowed Vedic Sanskrit terms; the Hajj customs of tonsuring the head or clipping the hair, signifance attached to water (zam zam), donning of seamless clothes, circumambulation of the black stone, etc, pre-date Isalm and are directly plaigiarised from Vedic ritutals. The paltry Quranic science pertaining to simple geographical or astronomical facts, the elementary biological details, the information on food/diet, etc, are all directly lifted from the far older cultures of India, China, Greece and others.

    Even monotheism is a very old Vedic idea that entered Judaism, Zororastrianism, Christianity and much later it was taken up by Islam, but, the Vedic Seers, having discovered the incompleteness and irrationality of monotheism, went beyond in their supra sensory searches and discovered that Monism or Unity underlying diversity to be the Ultimate Reality in which cuase is not divorced from effect with the latter being a graded manifestation of the supreme undelying cause.

    Monism or Unity has also been confirmed by science on the physical plane as postulated by Bell’s, the Boots Strap, Holographic and other path-breaking theorems that postulate a single material force (GUF) as constituting the grand unity of all material existence.

    Similarly, on a cosmic scale, the Vedas discovered an Ultimate Unity underlying the whole cosmos – A supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness that serves both as the subtle and gross material and efficient Cause of the multi-planar cosmos. The Absolute Consciounsess in manifestation is a Consciousness-Force that projects the graded cosmos right down to matter.

    With Islam, puerile ideas of extra-cosmic god has to be introduced to explain the universe but this is untenable as it contradicts the rationale of universal causality which demands that cause and effects are never separate but always linked (as effect is the outcome of a cause).

    funnily,an extra cosmic god is totally unconnected with the universe but still “magically” produces the cosmos “out-of -nothing” and manages to manipulate it “some-how or the other”.

    Does “creation-out-of-nothing” and “cause-unlinked with effect” make the least rational sense? Not at all.

    This is why monotheism/tauheed of the extra-cosmic kind is a falsehood but the spirituo-intellectually inferior ones take it to be the final revealed truth! Not surprising !!

    On the other hand, since cause has to be the source of effect, it logically follows that the effect is nothing else but a partial or full manifestation of the underlying cause.

    Besides, as the Quran does not make a single mention of Consciosuness,it’s not surprising that it is forced to preach an irrational extra-cosmic philosophy that rates “creation-out-of nothing” and “cause-totally-unconnected-with -effect” as “cardinal truths”, but, still “somehow”, as in fiction movies, both cause and effect manage to exist with cause, though external to effect, yet being capable of producing and governing the effect! This is all nonsense but it forms the staple religious diet of billions of people following the dualistic faiths.

    Finally, if Consciousness (a non-computational quantity) is not taken into consideration, then, obviously, heavens, hells, souls, angels, god, devils, etc, become fictional concepts and though these are said to be supra-physical/non-physical entities, yet, paradoxically, they’ll will have to be explained in gross materialistic terms which is a serious contradiction (as hells, heavens, angels, djinns, etc, are clearly supra-physical planes/entities) and hence if Quran, Bible or Zaboor talks about them without introducing the concept of Consciousness, then every becomes a laughing stock, a fairy tale.

    In such a situation, we find that, since the Quran, Bible or Zaboor, fail to mention Consciousness, every claim regarding hells, heavens, djins, etc, will consequntly have to be protrayed in gross material terms which does not tally with the non-material or supra-physical nature of these cosmic entities.

    As a result, in the Quran or Bible, we discover irrational descriptions of some undefined heaven (in which rivers of alcohol/milk/honey flow), winged horses as in cartoon magazines, whores in heaven, boiling water in hell and so on.

    If heaven, for, instance is a supra-physical place, how come there exist purely material things like alcohol/honey/milk there? Can boiling water exist in a non-physical (supra-physical) place like hell?

    The impartial observer can easily smash such fictional and baseless allegories to bits by quering what is the material, force compostion of, for instance, heaven and how does it link with mind, vital, emotions and matter?

    If heaven is a supra physical place, then how come it is a place of gross materiality (filled with honey, alcohol,milk, boiling water, etc) and further what is its materio-force basis and how does it link with matter?

    It is only when Consciousness is considered that the picture becomes clear/logical.

    Since Consciousness is the only non-computational quantity in existence in a universe of matter (as even science has discovered), it is thus rational to consider Consciousness as the supra-physical or non-physical basis of the universe and in its subtler states (free from the taint of matter), it is only logical to understand that Consciousness alone can account for the existence of supra-physical/non-physical planes or entities called heavens, hells, angels, etc.

    Today, science has understood that Consciousness is the substratum of the Quantum World and through the theorems on parallel universes among others, undogmatic physicists have accepted the existence of the non-physical planes of existence. So many other proofs exist.

    Though science has understood all this, yet the true nature of Consciousnes and the manner by which it connects with matter is a dark area for it. But, at least science is heading in the right direction unlike the dualistic faiths like Islam whose books, since they are devoid of this most crucial aspect (Consciousness, have concocted all sorts of irrational beliefs violating the laws of cause-efect and of painting heavens and hells in gross material terms (eg; rivers of milk in heaven) but, then, ironically, still claiming that heavens, hells, etc, are non-physical states.

    No wonder pious Muslims keep looking up to the sky in search of the 7-heavens that are supossed to be piled one on top of the other with lamps dangling from the lower heaven! Laughably, “up” and “down” are relative terms as the earth being a near-sphere there is no absolute “Up” or “down”.

    Remember, God, Heavens, Hells, etc, are within your own Consciousness and inherent in every atom! This postulation alone can rationally explain the nature and function of God-Nature-Man.

    Everything else is fiction, though each one is free to believe in what he/she wants…though rational answers/empirical proofs will be conspicuously missing from such a blind believer’s bank of sterile knowledge with fiction usurping the place of rationality!

    Joel P

14. Wow, Joel.

    For the first time in my life I’ve come across some really terrific rational arguments that blast Islamic myths to bits. Neither the Quran nor the Bible has a single rational answer/proof to confront any of your fundamental queries.
    With us Muslims everything is based merely on uncorroborated beliefs without us possessing any rational answers or proofs to any cosmic question realting to heavens, hells, etc.

    You rightly have also brought to light the lack of historical evidence concerning the old prophets Adham, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, Yunus, etc.

    Truly not an atom of proof exists to prove that these old Semitic prophets ever existed.

    The absence of explanations based on Cosmic Consciousness and its varied subtler movements, as Joel has rightly pointed out, converts every Quranic or Biblical reference to heaven, hell, djinns, farishtas, etc, into mere myths/fairy tales.
    Obviously, if Muslims believe in non-physical places like heavens,hells,etc, then the skeptic has every right to inquire as to what the nature of these places with respect to their material, force, functional composition are and the manner in which they are linked to our physical universe.
    Naturally, only Consciousness (that connects down to matter) in its lower and higher expressions or planes can rationally provide a convincing answer. All else is fiction.

    Bravo, Joel. I am impressed.

    The poor fictionalists of Islam must be squirming in their seats but are unlikely to concede the poverty of the Quran. They’ll go on arguing till Quyamat. There’s no hope for them.

    Has it rightly been said, that Subtle Rationality is the weapon the rabid Muslims and proselytising Christain Fathers fear the most because Rationality can demolish all the myths gathered for the past 1400 or 2000 years.

    But come to think of it, how terrible it has been that these very Semitic myths have brought about so much of bloodshed. Frankly, Islamists are fighting over a pack of myths and unsubstantiated nonsensical beliefs.

    Regards,

    Ahmed Ishaque

15. Guys, knock it off. If you haven’t noticed, this post was about the population of Muslims in different countries. You have strayed far from that topic.

16. I agree that we’ve strayed far from the topic under contention but the lengthy digression was certainly essential as many Muslim commenters have linked up demographics with the so-called religious superiority or Islamisation of the world or of India. This is why I guess, a truly secular braveheart like Joel had to step in and deliver a hard knock on the heads of these bigots by shattering all their fiction. He’s done a marvellous job of demonstrating the hollowness and outright puerility of Muslim beliefs. In fact as Joel has pointed out almost all the key Quranic terms/rituals have been plaigiarised from various ancient cultures – (even, as Joel noted, the word Allah – an original Sanskrit word from the Vedas signifying a minor aspect of the supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness consciousness, has been copied!)

    Not one of the Islamist’s religious claims can ever be substantiated,but, on the contrary, their beliefs can be shown false except for juvenile ethical stuff (related to charity, honesty, non-stealing, etc) that has been known since millennia to humankind even before the advent of Islam or any faith for that matter.

    Regards,
    Ahmed Ishaque

17. JOEL and AHMED ISHAQUE ARE THE SAME PERSON…100%

    Message to both of you.

    STOP COPYING STUFFS FROM ANTI ISLAM SITES AND POSTING IT HERE. FOR NONE OF THEM ARE TRUE.

    BUT ONE THING THAT IS DEFINITELY TRUE IS THAT ALL YOU NON BELIEVERS WILL GO TO HELL.

    Danish

18. Danish,

    Like an ignorant person, all that a fanatic like you can do is to deny the arguments of others without being able to disprove anything.

    Can you disprove anything I’ve said by providing sound reasons and proofs? On the other hand, can you provide me with rational answers and proofs to any of your naive claims of the so-called superiority of the Quran and so on?

    I am sure you can not answer a single question rationally or provide a single proof to back up any of your silly superstitions of winged horses, creation out of nothing, extra-cosmic god, 6 or 8 day creation, whores in heaven, rivers of milk, honey and alcohol in heaven, boiling water in hell, and so on.

    You don’t even know the definition of heaven or hell in terms of its materio-force composition and the manner in which it links with the rest of the cosmos and the way it connects with mind, emotions and matter.

    Despite being so ignorant, yet you curse others by saying that they’ll go to hell. I am laughing.

    But, hey, wait, Danish, what is the gross/subtle material-force composition of hell? How does it link with the the other planes of the cosmos and with mind, emotions and matter?

    Do you have the answer? Does the Quran have the answer or proof even on the ordinary subject of hell? NO.

    So, what’s the use of all your false boasts of the superiority of Islam and the juvenile rest.

    Regards,

    Joel

19. DANISH,

    YOUR IGNORANCE IS SHOWING.

    YOU DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE RATIONAL ANSWER OR ANY PROOF TO SUPPORT ANY OF YOUR FAIRY TALES DRAWN FORM THE QURAN, BIBLE, ZABOOR OR WHEREVER.

    STOP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.

    SO, WHAT IS THE USE OF CURSING PEOPLE AND WISHING THAT THEY ROAST IN HELL WHEN YOU CAN NOT EVEN DEFINE THE NATURE OF HELL?

    NEITHER DOES OUR BELOVED QURAN HAVE ANY ANSWER ABOUT THE NATURE OF HELL APART FROM REPEATEDLY USING THE WORD HELL?

    ANY FOOL CAN USE A WORD WITHOUT KNOWING WHETHER THE THING SPOKEN OF ACTUALLY EXISTS OR WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS IN HARD SCIENTIFIC TERMS – MATERIALS AND FORCES AND THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY ALL LINK UP IN A SINGLE CAUSE-EFFECT CHAIN TO FORM A UNITY.

    • DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE MATERIAL-FORCE CONDITIONS
      OF HELL ARE AND HOW THEY ARE CONNECTED WITH
      THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE?ANSWER JOEL IN A LOGICAL
      WAY.

    • HOW COME THERE EXISTS PHYSICAL STUFF LIKE
      RIVERS OF MILK, HONEY AND ALCOHOL IN YOUR
      HEAVEN? ISN’T HEAVEN SUPPOSED TO BE NON–
      PHYSICAL PLACE? THEN HOW COME YOU FIND THE
      QURAN TALKING TALL ABOUT MILK, HONEY AND
      ALCOHOL IN A NON-PHYSICAL PLACE LIKE HEAVEN?
      AND PHYSICAL STUFF BOILING WATER IN ANOTHER
      NON-PHYSICAL PLACE LIKE HELL? ANSWER THE
      PUZZLE.

    • GIVE JOEL THE ANSWER TO THE MATERIALS, FORCES
      COMPOSING HEAVENS, HELLS, ETC.

    OF WHAT SUBTLE/GROSS MATERIALS AND FORCES ARE
    YOUR QURANIC HEAVENS/HELLS MADE UP OF?

    HOW DOES THE SUBTLE CONNECT WITH THE GROSS?

    • HOW ARE THE NON-PHYSICAL HEAVENS/HELLS
      CONNECTED TO THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE? IN OTHER
      WORDS, WHAT ARE THE SUBTLE (NON-PHYSICAL
      MATERIALS AND FORCES MAKING UP THE
      HEAVENS/HELLS AND IN WHAT WAY ARE THESE NON–
      PHYSICAL STUFF CONNECTED TO PHYSICAL MATTER OF
      WHICH OUR UNIVERSE IS MADE UP OF?

    • IS IT POSOBLE FOR A WINGED HORSE (BURAQ) TO
      HAVE EVER EXISTED?

    • IS CREATION OUT OF NOTHING EVER POSSIBLE? HOW?

    • IS VIRGIN BIRTH (AS IN THE CASE OF
      JESUS)POSSIBLE? HOW? WHAT ARE THE
      GROSS/SUBTLE MATERIALS, FORCES AND MECHANISMS
      INVOLVED?

    • IS THERE ANY ARCHAEOLOGICAL, NUMISMATIC,
      INSCRIPTIONAL OR GENETIC PROOF TO SUPPORT THE
      HISTORICITY OF ADHAM, IBRAHIM, MOOSA, YUNUS,
      ILYAS, ISA AND OTHER SEMITIC PROPHETS? DID
      THEY EXIST? WHAT ARE THE HARD PROOFS TO
      SUPPORT THAT THEY WERE HISTORICAL PERSONS?

    • HOW COME THE MAIN QURANIC WORDS AND RITUALS
      LIKE ALLAH, EID, KAABA, HAJJ, MAM, MIM,
      RA, SIM, ETC AND ALL THE HAJJ RITUALS
      (CIRCUMBULATING A STONE PILLAR THAT LOOKS LIKE
      A SHIV LINGA, DONNING OF SEAMLESS CLOTHES,
      TONSURING THE HEAD/CLIPPING THE HAIR, ETC)
      COPIED FROM VEDIC-SANSKRIT SOURCES?

    • HOW COME THE ELEMENTARY SCIENCES IN QURAN ARE
      ALL COPIED FROM INDIAN, CHINESE OR GREEK
      SOURCES?

    THERE ARE MANY MORE QUESTIONS. BUT THIS BE
    ENOUGH FOR NOW.

    LISTEN YOU IGNORANT FANATICS, THIS IS YOUR
    CHANCE TO PROVE ALL YOUR FAIRY TALES.

    SO, GIVE RATIONAL ANSWERS AND PROOFS TO BACK
    UP ALL YOUR FICTIONAL STORIES AND SILLY CLAIMS.

    BYE,
    A ISHAQUE

20. Dear Uncle RAUF,

    You say that Hindu gods are human-made and that Allah is the only god!

    Are you aware that the word Allah itself is a pure Sanskrit word that occurs in Vedic literature and refers in Vedic parlance to a minor cosmic aspect of the Absolute Vedic God?

    The Absolute consciousness (Akhand Chit) is considered God in Vedic literature and Its impersonal cosmic manifestation is called Allah in Sanskrit but Allah the Cosmic Impersonal Consciousness has many other Sanskrit synonyms as well such as Akshar Brahman, Nirgun Brahman, etc.

    The Jews borrowed this Vedic-Sankrit word and used it as El/Eloi alongwith Yahweh for god, then Jesus modified it to Allaha to denote his heavenly father and finally this Vedic-Sanskrit word (Allah) was picked up by the Arabs and used as a word for god!

    So, Papa Rauf, who’s god is human-made, copied/stolen?

    What a laugh that the Muslims are for the past 1400 years worshipping a Hindu god (Allah) and calling it an original Semitic/Islamic term!

    As in Hinduism everything is considered a manifestation of a Cosmic Consciousness-Force, then how can you say that their highly rational and scientific faith is human-made?

    Can Cosmic Consciousness, which is a naturally existing fact, be invented by humans when the entire cosmos and we ourselves are pervaded by it and made of it?

    In Vedic expositions, the supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness is God and which as a manifested graded Consciousness-Force (Chit Shakti) projects the entire multi-planar cosmos out of its innate essence.Thus heavens, hells, souls, angels, humans, stars, etc, are simply different graded aspects of the manifested Cosmic Consciousness-Force.

    In Hinduism, god does not reside amidst fire and thunder on a cloud or somewhere outside the universes but, on the contrary, God, as the Absolute Consciousness, is the only Reality and Who, in partial manifestation, as a graded Cosmic consciousness-Force, manifests the entire cosmos out of Its Self! God serves as both the material and efficient Cause/Source of the cosmos!God is the Absolute Unity underlying every cosmic variety!

    Cause and its Effects have to the linked together for anything to make sense, otherwise everything gets reduced to FICTION of the Islamic/Christian kind in which some extra-god suddenly manufactured cosmic materials “out of nothing” and then made the universes and though he is unlinked with the cosmos yet he has the power to govern it, some non-physical heaven is said to be filled with flowing rivers of physical substances like milk/alcohol/honey; whores and fair boys cater to one’s sex needs in some undefined heaven; horses like Buraq have wings to fly to some undefined heavens in the clouds or god-knows where; 7 non-physical heavens (whose material-force compostions are unknown nor is it known how they link with matter) are said to be suspended in layers above the earth for the naive believers to gaze up to, prophets like Adham, Moosa, Ibrahim and others (about whom historical proofs do not exist) are credited with copied/stale but tall achievements.

    In short, nothing makes sense.

    Not a single Islamic belief can ever have a rational answer or proof to support its veracity.

    Can such a faith ever satisfy the higher intellectual sections of humanity? No.

    With the Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and others, every phenomenon is a manifestation of a cosmic Consciousness-Force that itself is a projection of a supra cosmic, self-contained Absolute Consciousness.

    So, when a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh prays, he does not look to the sky or outside of himself, but he prays to the innate Supreme Spirit (Absolute Consciousness) that is within him and from whom he and the whole cosmos has originated.In this way, the laws of Cause-Effect are never violated and heavens/hells/souls/angels are simply modes/states of the manifested Consciousness-Force. How rational!

    Compare these sublime Vedic revelations with the crude Semitic ideas that violate the laws of cause-Effect at every step.

    No wonder, Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Neils Bohr, Max Planck, Ernest Schroedinger and other scientific greats were highly impressed by the Vedic expositions and derived much intellectual fodder from it.

    Today, Quantum Physics, too, has recognised just 2 aspects of Reality which are Matter-Consciousness.

    The riddle thrown up by Consciousness that inheres in every atom has perplexed scientists. Consciousness, being a non-computational and thus a non-physical quantity, has foxed the scienfic community. It remains a great mystery to science. If the material aspect of Consciousness has confounded them, then what can one say of its supra-physical states! The Vedas give out all the crucial hints on this most profound query. The means to attain to the higher supra physical states of Consciousness are also provided in hindu and Buddhist scriptures…

    The Nobel laureate Max Planck remarked: “I consider Consciousness as fundamental, matter as secondary. I consider matter to be derivative of Consciousness.”

    In comparison, not surprisingly, Consciousness finds not a single mention in juvenile books like the Quran and Bible (though in the Bible there exists a veiled reference to it in the words of Christ when he chided the Jews for searching for God and heavens outside of themselves by gazing into the skies. On seeing the ignorant Jews looking skywards in search of God-heavens, Jesus told them not to look to the sky but to look within themselves: “Behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you!).

    Otherwise, the Bible, like the Quran, Zaboor, Torah and other Semitic books, is full of childish dualistic teachings that alludes to irrationalities like creation out of nothing, cause unlinked with effect.

    Here, in short, is the basic difference between the different faiths.

    so, Uncle Rauf, the comparisons are self-evident, or should I spell it out in bold as to what Islamic beliefs are all about?

    I guess by now you ought to know the vast diference between FICTION and REALITY? Got it?

    Arsalan, Javed, Danish and others, have you all got it, now?

    Boys, enjoy your FICTION as long as it lasts because Nature will get rid of it in time to come but do not impose all your FICTION on others as it has been done for the past 1400 years. So, much of bloodshed, cruelty and barbarism has been unleashed by ignorant Muslim and Christian biogts! And for what? To spread FICTION!

    PS: Fanatical Muslim boys, here’s something for you to digest:

    In Sanskritised-Tamil ( a language of South India that dates back to several millennia), a Shiva temple is called “Kaabalieshwaran” or “Kaaba” and Shiva (the Cosmic Conscient aspect of Cosmic Beneficence-Transcendence-Dissolution) is termed Kaabali!

    An aniconic, oblong black (ashwet,aswad = non-white or black) stone is installed in such temples that have a water spring for pilgrims to circumabulate 7 times. Many more details exist.

    Got it, boys?

    WARM WISHES,

    Joel P

21. hi all guys,
    I would like to add a few comments. Hindu religion is the oldest religion of the world. bramha created the srishti. All other religion borned after that. According to “Nostadems” after 2016 hindu religion will be widespreads in the world. All other religions (Major) have ruled the world now its time for hindus. Wherever you find hindus it is peaceful on the other hand wherever you find Muslims riot is their inborn right. Those days are not far away that all muslims will renage to hindus. those who are borned as hindus are really luky.

22. Dear Sanjay,

    Your views are as stupid as those of Javed, Arsalan, Uncle Rauf, Danish and other ignorant Muslim fanatics.

    Like them, all you can do is to shout out your pet theories without being able to rationally answer or substantiate any of your hollow claims.

    If you equate Hinduism with the Hindus, then you’ve not understood anything, though the Hindus can be in a way considered the rightful heirs of the Vedas.

    But, in what sense?

    Are the 850 million or more Hindus the rightful heirs of the sublime Vedic wisdom in experiential terms or by virtue of birth? Obviously, the latter.

    First, understand that Hinduism (rather Vedism) is not a formal religion as say Judaism, Christianity or Islam as it does not revolve exclusively around the teachings of a Prophet.

    On the contrary, though several mighty Prophets (viz., Ram, Krishna, Chaitanya, RamKrishna Paramhans, Sri Sri Anukul Chandra Thakurji) have arisen on the soil of India, yet the Vedas is an independent record of the supersenuous experiences of the Rishis concerning the Laws of Cosmic Consciousness and their manifested effects that both derive from a supra cosmic, self-existent, self-contained Absolute Consciousness that serves as both the material and efficient Source or Cause-Mechanism of the graded cosmos!

    Vedism is the Science of Cosmic Consciousness! Nothing less!

    The Prophets/Avatars have all expounded or clarified the findings of the Rishis and have at times gone into terrific details to further add to the stupendous Vedic bank of cosmic knowledge and have also revealed newer methods of Self-Realisation.

    While with other faiths, God is extra-cosmic and creation occured out of nothing (in open defiance of the laws of Causation, Conservation and Unity underlying Diversity!). With them heavens, hells, angels, souls, etc, are mere words; they have not the least rational definitions/explanations or proofs of what they believe in, yet they think that just because say the Quran claims something, then, without the least proofs or rational answers, it has to be true. There’s no spirit of rationality or inquiry into the aspects of cosmic existence. If you ask one of them (Jew/Christian/Muslim) the meaning of say heavens, he won’t have any definition of heaven in terms of their subtle-gross material/force composition nor the manner in which the varied subtle aspects link together among themselves and later with the gross matter. They know nothing.

    Besides,almost all their Prophets remain mere book names; there exists not an atom of proof to corroborate the existence of Adham,Moosa, Ibrahim, Ilyas, Yunus, Isa and so on.

    But, perhaps, the Semitic books that are all pale imitations of the Vedas (with, shockingly, even Allah being a pure Vedic-Sanskrit word!) have willfully withheld the higher information as the Prophets/Saints responsible for the Semitic holy books were confronted with inferior followers who lacked the capacity to comprehend and realise the cosmic truths in their own lives!

    In comparison, very importantly, with Vedism, the key-note is Self-Realisation: To actually realise the supra-physical cosmic truths by direct experiences in the supersenuous/supra-physical states of Consciousness, nothing less.

    Nothing should, say the Vedas, be taken for granted based on mere book expositions.

    Direct proofs gained through supersenuous yogic experiences of the varied Cosmic Powers, Light, Knowledge, Peace, Bliss of the supra-physical cosmic planes is the aim, knowing which one knows all – the subtle as well as the gross and the connections of all the aspects leading to the Supreme Unity!

    “What is That by knowing which everything else is known is the pronounced basal theme of the Vedanta! To discover, through actual experiences, the Supreme Unity underlying the entire cosmic diversity, is the aim!

    Such an exacting aim! Only the extra-ordinary souls can achieve it!

    Self-Realisation: This is the supreme goal of the Vedanta.

    Compare this to those childish Semitic religious excercises of simple book recitations, fasting, congregational prayers, pilgrimage and the rest.

    To be a true Vedantist, one has to be a Yogi/Rishi who has actually come into direct supersenuous contact with the subtle planes of the graded Cosmic Consciousness-Force. There exist so many more details….

    On the other hand, everything with the Semitic faiths is based on mere half-baked book knowledge or hearsay! Dogmatism, irrationality,superstitions, to say the least!!!

    But, sadly, today very few Hindus can intellectually understand the grand Vedic revelations and as far as the actual yogic prcatice of achieving the Supra Physical Union is concerned, well, not more than a handful are capable in varying degrees in the present.

    Most Hindus have badly degenerated in body-vital-mind that they collectively present a deplorable sight and this inner degradation has in turn converted them into a populace with slavish, jealous, selfish and cowardly minds!

    Bear this in mind.

    Warm regards,

    Joel Pastakia

23. Joel,

    You are an intelligent spiritual person with many strong views that have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why are you still exasperating yourself explaining Vedic supernatural understanding and Self-Conscious to people who really just want to talk about the Islamic population in India? I was waiting for Zack to say something but he must have already given up seeing the amount of rhetoric that comes out of you. Get back to the main topic.

    Your Pal.

24. Hi Sindhi,

    Though I heartily agree with you that I’ve digressed far from the original theme (The Muslim population in India), why can’t you understand that the Muslim population is not a mere statistical quantity that can be discussed in a mathematical manner?

    Why?

    Because with the Muslims at least, a rising population is automatically linked with the victory of Islam and the subsequent Islamisation of India, USA and the world.

    The average Muslim – the majority – just cannot seem to delink demographics or for that matter anything else too from their religious dogmas drawn from the corpus of Islam. They gloat at the decimation or subjugation of other religions, cultures and non-Muslim populaces.

    But, they in their naked ignorance of the underlying cosmic processes, have failed to understand that the law of nature inheres in Unity Underlying Diversity! Can Nature ever tolerate a total homogenisation of any entity, religion included? No. Variety with an underlying unity is the law of Nature in every aspect at least on the earth plane where the diversity, with underlying connecting trends, in almost everything is amazing. The same holds true for the entire cosmos.

    Self-Realisation – when the individual Consciousness fuses with the Cosmic Conscious Self – is above all dogmatised aspects of religion and is the only creed that can be termed universal.

    Perhaps, with the manifestation of a subtler aspect of the Cosmic Consciousness-force in physical matter on the earth plane, humanity will, in the future, move collectively towards a a single,new faith – the Cosmic faith of Self-Realisation when the Cosmic truths are directly experienced as expressions of a supra cosmic Unity underlying all diversity!

    Coming back to the Muslims, they naively believe that the Quran is the last word of truth of all kinds when obviously, to the unbiased observer, it’s an egregious fallacy.

    Why, haven’t you noticed that the heavy undertones of faith (Islam) in many of the previous messages on this forum?

    Why, haven’t you yourself on a few occasions painted a grim picture of the pathetic state of the minorities in Pakistan?

    You, obviously, from your comments, fear for your life being a Hindu in Pakistan! Right?

    And you yourself have said that the Muslims can not co-exist peacefully with other communities. Right?

    If India and Pakistan ever unite, in a short time the Hindus will be violently attacked and demographically made into a minority with the Sharia imposed upon them.

    So, Mr Sindhi “Intellectual”, when the writing is clear on the wall that the Muslims view their rising population with some so-called religious glory or supremacy and have been openly pouring insults on the non-Muslim beliefs on this site and when you yourself can state that the plight of the minorities in Muslim lands like Pakistan is deplorable, then how come you believe that that demographics is just a simple table of numbers? Are you in your senses?

    Are you so blind or pseudo-secular that you insist on discussing the population trends of the various religious communities in India and elsewhere as a mere mathematical excercise when the communal cauldron is about to violently spill over? Let the muslim population in India touch the 25% or 30% mark and then the real trouble will begin. Watch out!!! Unless natural justice intervenes to save India from such a terrible consequence, we can bid goodbye to peace forever!

    Can you not plainly see that the tenor and drift of the debate on this site is loaded with the sinister message that India and the world are soon to be Islamised due to the population boom among the Mulims?

    And, here you expect me to behave like another spineless Hindu (though I am not a Hindu) in overlooking the seriousness of the issue at hand and keep the discussion confined to merely a game of statistics? I am ashamed at your response.

    Though a Hindu, I bet that you won’t know head nor tail of your own Vedas apart from drawing out a gross idolatrous meaning from these grandest of all revelations.

    As a Hindu in Pakistan, you won’t dare to protest even if the Muslims there spit on your idols, books, temples or families.

    You can’t do a thing either spiritually, intellectually or physically to defend your faith or your person or hit back against the blasphemies of the Muslims there.

    Why, even in Hindu dominated India, most of the Hindus are rank cowards, afraid to confront the Muslims in most instances.

    The Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Communists regularly throw insults at Hinduism but where is the manly Hindu response?

    The Hindus in India are behaving like a minority community in their own land and are tolerating every shit being dished out to humiliate their religion and culture.

    In which nation on earth, will such a shocking thing happen?

    In any other country, such a thing would never have been tolerated from the very beginning and if, by chance, such a ghastly scenario would have arisen, there would have been civil war by now.

    The Hindus have greatly deteriorated and have lost all their past spiritual, intellectual and martial valour.

    Cowardice, sham tolerance and digesting insults of every kind is not what the Vedas, the Ramayana or the Gita teach.

    The Vedic faith teaches one to be a man first and then to think of taking up the super-Herculean task of Yogic Union with the supra physical cosmic planes. Got it?

    For many centuries now the Hindus having been hiding under the sheath of a so-called tolerance but true tolerance does not lie in being indifferent to every insult or smilingly enduring every injustice and calling that a noble trait.

    The present Hindu brand of tolerance is another word for cowardice, selfishness and a non-sacrificial attitude that have all become inborn tendencies – impregnated in their genomes over the past 1,000 years!

    Ok, Sindhi “Intellectual”?

    On reading the comments on this forum, I decided to first expose the hollowness and downright falsehood of the so-called superior religious claims of the Islamists.

    Those ignorant Muslims like Arsalan, Danish, Rauf and others have, apart from simply making tall claims and screaming abuses to their critics, not been able to rationally answer a single query. And, as far as evidences are concerned, their beliefs are a big zero!

    These cheap fanatics have been indoctrinated into believing silly book tales!

    Warm regards,

    Joel Pastakia

25. Sindhi: You are correct. I keep trying to get this comment thread back to the topic but people seem to go off on completely unrelated stuff and I am just tired of the whole thing now.

    Joel: Please stop posting whole essays about completely unrelated topics here.

    Everyone: Please keep your comment on topic i.e. about the Muslim populations of major countries, especially Pakistan and India. Also, no bigoted or hateful comments will be tolerated.

26. Dear Zack,

    I appreciate your comments and your patience for enduring the “long essays” that were a necessary part of my build up on the topic of the Muslim Population in India. As said earlier, it was undertaken to deflate the bigotry displayed by certain Muslim members on this forum and to knock off the Islamic propaganda part, irrational to say the least, out of the discourse.

    You want me to stop posting “irrelevant” views but I tell you that my purpose has been achieved.

    Not a single Muslim bigot, despite using the “wisdom” drawn from the Quran, has been able to answer any fundamental query rationally or on the basis on evidence! Every book claim expressed by them as the “eternal truth” can be shown false, inadequate or plaigiarised.

    It has rightly been said that subtle rationality is the weapon the bigoted Islamist fears the most as it demolishes all his book fairy tales and illusory beliefs.

    Apart from hollow claims and abuses hurled at critics, what else can the fanatics offer?

    You also say that hate comments and bigotry will not be tolerated but there exist several highly “offensive” and “provocative” mesages on this site which have not been deleted or censured!

    Lastly, please remember, it makes no sense to keep indulging in a “guessing game” as regards the true figures of the Indian Muslim population without analysing the underlying causes and the concomitant implications and consequences.

    Warm regards and good wishes,

    Joel Pastakia

27. Rm K M K Bhsdr, nchdck, nchdck brthr: You have been disenvoweled. Consider this as your warning against such language.

28. Joel,

    The basic belief in Hinduism (and probably Islam and almost any other major religion) is that everyone should strive to be the best individual they can be and that everyone is equal in the eyes of God. Therefore, why are you so upset at the Muslim people? Only a very small percentage of Muslims advocate violence against other religions, where as most others just go about their daily routine trying to be the best Muslims they can be. You go against your own Dharmic principles when you ridicule other peoples beliefs to the point of nonsense. Hinduism is a peaceful religion that can coexist with any other religion. Each time you talk against Islam, you berate Hinduism and make other Hindus look like fanatical morons. Throughout your whole self-realization spiel, you forget that in achieving ultimate understanding, judgement should NOT be passed on others. But you just can’t quit judging Islam and how it is so bad.

    On another note,

    I am a Sindhi Hindu raised in the United States whose relatives were removed from Pakistan after partition. I read information about the current state of Hindus in Pakistan and know it is bad. That is why I brought up the topic in this post, since figuring out the remaining Hindus in Pakistan would go along with trying to figure out the Muslim population in India. However, I also know that there are a number of well respected Hindus in Pakistan too (i.e. Rana Bhagwandas, Deepak Perwani, Danish Kaneria). Knowing this, I know that all Pakistanis aren’t bad people, especially if there can be famous Hindus well known in their country. If I used your logic, I would be ranting on and on about how Pakistanis abhor Hindus.

    Please stop with your insults, Joel. If not for the sake of Hindus, but for yourself.

    Thanks,

    Your Pal.

29. Dear Sindhi,

    You’ve failed to comprehend the essence of my message. It’s directed against all fanatics; haven’t you noticed the manner in which I’ve berated a Hindu fanatic like Sanjay? Another slip on your part is that I am not a Hindu as you’ve implied. I am a Parsi.

    What I mean by my posts is that if Muslim bigots like Arsalan, Javed, Rauf and others can brazenly link demographics wih the victory of Islam and pray for the subsequent Islamisation of India and the world, why can’t someone step in and shatter their false religious beliefs? Is it wrong to do so? On the contrary, it clears the foul stench of fanaticism pervading this site.

    In order to smash the false superiority of these bigots, all I did was to ask them some fundamental queries on Islamic beliefs pertaining to the substratal nature of heavens, hells, souls, etc, and the manner in which they link with matter. I knew fully well that neither the Quran nor Arsalan, Javed and others could rationally answer any of those queries. All that the Islamic book does is to mention these supra physical entities without explaining the substratal part. Another of those Islamic fancies is Creation out of Nothing and Cause unlinked with Effect! I laugh at all this.

    Besides, I simply pointed out that key Quranic terms (viz. Allah, Kabba, Eid, Hajj, Sangmay Aswad, Mam, Mim, Ra, etc) and rituals (circumambulation of a cylindrical Shiva Linga-like stone, donning seamless garments, tonsuring the head/clipping the hair and many others) are plaigiarised from Vedic sources. Further, all the elementary geographic, scientific and hilosophical knowledge contained in the Quran is also copied from Indian, Greek, Judiac, Chinese and other books.

    So, what is unique about the Quran? Nothing.

    Yet, we find Muslim fanatics killing and persecuting non-Muslims and preaching hatred against other faiths. Arsalan and others are no better.

    Interestingly, not an atom of archaeological, numismatic, epigraphic and genetic evidence has been unearthed to corroborate the historicity of their mythical prophets – Adham, Ibrahim, Moosa, Isa, etc.

    I do not have a grouse against any religion. All I ask people is to respect all religions, not to promote myths and superstitions of the Quranic or any other kind, not to bully, maim, persecute and kill others due to these myths and not to equate demographics with religious superstitions.

    By the way, why couldn’t you bravely face (at least ideologically) the Mullas in Pakistan that you had to flee like a typical Hindu coward to the USA? Idelogically, too, your understanding of your own Hindu Vedas is a big zero. Apart from pleasing all as a cover for your cowardice and spirituo-intellectual deficiencies and falling before you idols, what else can you do?

    The Vedas preach manliness before Self-Realisation! Got it?

    Here in India a 13% Muslim populaion has put the fear of god into the weak Hindu heart; the Muslims are never afraid to die for their pet beliefs, the Hindu, in most cases, keeps compromising on all issues and is only intent on securing material prosperity for himself and is family.

    All your arguments on Hindu-Muslims demographics are mere juvenile “guess-games”, pyrrhic speculations that lead to nothing conclusive.

    Neither is there any attempt to analyse the seed causes underlying population trends nor is there any effort to link demographics with socio-economic-religio status/trends/beliefs and their consequences as manifested in world history and particularly in the Indain sub-continent where a mixed population and the concomitant growth/decline of individual castes and religious communities has given rise to some of the most interesting events over the past 1,000 years. India has changed much down the ages and is today in quite a deplorable plight.

    Compounding matters is the sinister nexus of our politicians with the underworld (most of whom are puppets of the ISI.

    The future population growth (and fast altering communal composition) in India is bound to witness very volatile happenings in the decades to come.

    Best Regards,

    Joel Pastakia

    I wanted to put them in their place.

30. Back to the topic,

    Looking at the latest CIA world factbook figures has made me somewhat skeptical of how the CIA conveys the population information.

    First, they show India’s population at 1.08 Billion and Pakistan’s at 162 million. But, when addressing the religious denominations within both countries, neither country’s percentages are updated. It still says Pakistan’s muslim population accounts for around 97% of the total, and India’s accounts for 13.4% of their total. If this is the most accurate source upon which this discussion is based, shouldn’t the religious figures be up to date before we hypothesize? Otherwise, we sit here and guess as to which country has the higher muslim population.

    I think that the population estimates may very well be inaccurate, and therefore it is pretty difficult to put a proper number on either country’s muslim population.

    Right now, my safe guess is that both countries have around 150,000,000 muslims, give or take 10,000,000.

    Since it seems that India’s muslim population is more in question than Pakistan’s, I think calculating the muslim population in each state in India and getting a total would be more accurate than what the CIA fact book is saying.

    Another point in question, what role does Kashmir play when figuring out the total Muslim population of both countries? It is quite possible that when Pakistan or India release their statistics, they include the whole population of Kashmir within their respective state. Kashmir isn’t the most heavily populated state, but there are enough Muslims to make a difference for either Pakistan’s or India’s total.

    Again, we don’t ACTUALLY know how either country calculates their population, but I’m assuming the CIA divides Kashmir between the 2 countries on the LOC border.

    Speaking of which, is it right that population facts may be done with Kashmir divided along the LOC? Would it be wrong if both countries included Kashmir’s population as their own, or just neglected the state’s population completely?

    Just thought I’d give my input on the discrepencies of the information we’re dealing with.

    Sindhi Student.

31. sindhi bhai,

    namaskar!

    i have been thro all the mails and must say that ur entire mission is, as Joel says, to simply keep playing a ‘guessing game’ about numbers of hindus and muslims in india or pakistan. in all your mails and in those of most other peoples on this website, a childish game of tossing back & forth of population numbers is being played.

    what will such a silly guessing game achieve? if once and for all u and others can form a rough count of the hindu-muslim populations, then what will come next on your list of guesses?

    u keep quoting one figure for hindus and muslims, others deny that, they give their own guesses, then u reply back saying that their guesses don’t make sense. then after some time u insert some stale statement about how minorities are badly treated in pakistan and then u wonder how come muslims can never live in peace with non-muslims, then u say your family got scared and ran away from pakistan to USA, then afterwards you stupidly say that u hope that india and pakistan should unite and when it’s pointed out by someone else that such a unification would result in mass bloodshed, then realising your foolishness u quickly write back that actually u meant to write that trade wise both neighbours should unite. thereafter some muslim mulla like Arsalan jumps in and says that he hopes islam captures india and calls the hindus dirty names (why didn’t u protest?), then our gutsy joel steps in to slam these fanatics and to point out all the stupidities in Islamic beliefs and tells u and Zack not to play a kiddish game of simply guessing population figures without analysing the root causes and consequences, but then u write back saying to joel not to change the topic so that the guessing game can go on and on so that u can can indulge in ur fantasies of only continually guessing the true population of hindus and muslims…….

    does all this make even the slightest sense? to keep on guesssing and guessing and guessing till judgement day.

    i hope good sense will come upon you so that u and others stop this silly guessing game. it’s a low IQ thing to do. it is just like rumour mongering or like women gossiping about petty or make-belief stuff and trying to imagine they are doing someting very smart when actually by doing so u and others are only showing the level of ur intelligence. so please improve ur self and get a little sensible.
    i have loads of information on community statistics from the TISS but those write-ups go deep into logical reasons and outcomes of demographics instead of stupidly indulging in a guessing game of the actual population figures.

    i wonder how Zack, who atleast appears to be more sensible, can ever allow people to keep indulging in a never ending game of guess statistics. Sindhi, it’s like the old fool who repeatedly tried imagining and discussing with other ignorant people about how many millions he would discover at the bottom of the river bed game and the way he would spend it without knowing if there was any truth in his wild guesses and hallucinations.

    as for me, if the muslims r incressing, then it is mainly due to high birth rate and not due to conversions. india is home to about 150 million muslims. if say a country X becomes mainly muslim over time, it will see lots of violence with other communities.

    love: Yash

32. Sindhi: Didn’t we discuss that about a year ago?

33. DEAR ZAck,
    i am glad that u have reminded Sindhi that his questions are very old and repititive. he just keeps repeating old questions over and over again without arriving at any intelligent conclusion. for how long will he and others like him keep on guessing and only guessing and like young kids keep changing their guesses over and over again?

    please ban this childish, sub-intellectual Sindhi guy and even fanatics like Arsalan, etc from this forum. the new rule should be that only original questions on the topic under discussion and answers that at least attempt to form a conclusion should be entertained. the scope of the debate should also be enlarged to include analysis of the causes and consequences of changing demographic trends in india and the world.

    Sindhi boy, stop your childish repititive questions, arsalan stop ur islamic nonsense, joel please do not answer fools like Sindhi who can not go deeper apart from simply playing a stupid guessing game and also do not answer evil individuals like arsalan whose only aim in life is to convert non-muslims to his irrational islamic book beliefs.

    love, Yashendra

34. Yashendra: I would appreciate it if you didn’t make any personal attacks.

35. Muslim = Arab + Iran?

    Somehow, a lot of people and the media think most Muslims are Arabs. It pisses me off. Can’t the media look up some data? The latest is a CNN story about the case of Sultana Freeman, a Muslim woman who…

36. I did not have patience to read all the comments, but few theories:
    1)
    Most of us blame the communal BJP for the violence, but has anyone ever thought that it is the so-claimed secular Congress and other parties that’s the real culprit for the existing communal parties and the reglious aminosity in India. If the secular Congress was so concerned about the minorities, why it did not do anything for their upliftment? It was ruling for 50 years! Give a thought to an idea that its the actions of this Congress party that led to the rise in power of communal parties. When in the name of minortism, the majorties were not given the equal attentions, some of the moderates changed to the fundamentalist hindu. I don’t have the specifics, but read an article on rediff.com about how the government acted when the Indians were kidnapped abroad. In case of Muslim (or some other minority) one the government was prompt, while in the case of Hindu one the person was allowed to die. I am not promoting BJP or other secular force, but rather trying to say that Congress is not that secular after all. It just has the hunger for votes.
    2)
    One reason why the government would like to keep the muslim population undercounted because that would give them the weapon for the votes. They can say that you are not many and need some support against communal segments and we can give that protection. When you think you are alone, you will even fall for the most blatant lie responding to the most basic instinct of survival. Remember so far, its congress/so-called secular that has put out the census.
    3)
    Reason lot of Hindus in India think that Muslims don’t care about India is, I believe, that all the bomb-attacks have been carried out by Muslims. Organizations like SIMI breeds the anti-India feelings. Some actions like putting religion before nation (I remember Muslims protesting to stand-up to National Anthem claiming its against Koran. Agreed your faith must be respected, but nobody asked to bow, just give respect. When giving respect to your neighbour Hindu is not against Islam, then why to the nation is?) some of these issues are blown-out of proportion by the dirty politicians and then moderates on either sides converts to extermism.

37. Jignesh: I don’t even know where to start with your comment. For the umpteenth time, this post is about the Muslim populations of different countries, not about the Hindu-Muslim animosity or something.

38. I was trying to speculate why there is no concensus on what’s the Muslim population in India or why no one knows what’s the ‘actual’ Muslim population in India. I guess I did not put it correctly. You are right. Sorry about that!

39. Jignesh,

    Obviously, you dare not speculate about the true population of Muslims in India. Nevertheless, by all accounts, it does stand to reason that the Muslims in India, including those in J&K and the illegal Bangladeshis, is about 15 crores though the official claim is a bit lower.

    As far as your diatribe against the unpatriotism of Muslims in India is concerned, the truth is that Muslims are not loyal to any nation even in Islamic lands with most favouring a pan-Islamic state cutting across geo-political boundaries. Even in Pakistan, a huge chunk of Muslims owe greater alligiance to Osama Laden’s idea of the establishment of an Islamic superstate straddling half the world with more nations following under its sway as they get vanquished by jihadi violence. They hardly care for the sovereignty of Pakistan but are more hooked to the notion of a global Islamic state.

    Lastly, remember, the patriotism of most Muslims is “conditional” as they view the “unsubstantiated”, “incomplete”, “juvenile” and “plagiarised” knowledge contained in the Quran to be absolute, binding for all times, the last word of truth and true in every aspect, literal or otherwise.

    But, before the hard hitting hammer of logic, Muslim bravado, pride, superiority and condescension towards everything non-Muslim or secular gets shattered to bits as the bold fact is this that neither the Quran nor their own perverted reasoning can convincingly and factually account for a single tall claim about soul, heaven, hell or angels. They have no answers or proofs to any fundamental query !!!

    Funnily, their extra-cosmic or sky-god Allah is a pure Vedic-Sanskrit word and concept which was lifted from the Vedas. Further, there exists no evidence to even show that Adam, Moosa, Ibrahim, and other Semitic prophets were historical persons!

    Joel Pastakia

40. hey you Muslims answer the questions raised by Joel or else admit the inferiority of the Quran !!!

    Yashendra

41. i m not the earlier sindhi bhai, neither have i read any comments before—its too long —but i would like to say one thing—the hindu concept of nirguna bhagwan or a god with no form and the islamic concept of unformed god is the same. But islam is more violent—i m not influenced by western media though, but i have read the quran and the book isent wrong—it says we must not worship idols, but it never says that we must not worship idols if we think there is just one god. Prophet mohammed intended to make people realize god is one and as they used to divide themselves on basis on diff idol worshippers, thus the concept of one god came. But this concept was there already in vedic scriptures as ádvaita’or non-dual god. Yes we r idol worshippers but we think its onne god. Gosshhh these people are misinterpreting the holy quran We sindhis are mostly sufi in our views, we believe god is one!
    lastly i want to mention even one more point—islam is not bad—its the followers—even if today budhism was a religion in arabia today then today people would fear budhism and consider it a bad religion!—its the race of people that follow the religion that make it violent or peacefull. But the fault also lies int eh source. The very muslim quran in sum parts has the attitude of holier then thou! this is wrong and sarva dharma samman is only limited to hinduism so i would not support islam in that case!—otherwise its a wonderful religion —but not as logical and scientifcally correct and adjusting peaceful as hindu faith!

42. for once Sindhi is quite right but Joel’s profound analysis takes the cake when it comes to commenting on comparitive religions. The quran like bible and purans are altered books for several reasons which can be proved. nevertheless what the Quran says is not new, or comprehensive. Every thing in it is borrowed or copied with its own unique distortions. even Allah is a Sanskrit word. Anyway, Islam is fine as long as it means surrender to One God whether u choose to call it Allah, God, Jehovah or Ishwar. However, monism or advaita is above monotheism. In monism or non-dualism, the ultimate unity of God, Nature and Man is found and is declared to be the Supreme Super-Conscious Absolute Godhead ! This, in manifestation, expresses Itself as the Personal God (Allah, God, Jehovah, Ishwar) and Its further manifestations projects the whole cosmos into being. Unity underlying all diversity is the only truth of existence.

    Yashendra

43. I have no idea what to do with your comments, guys. They are so far off the topic at hand and so stereotypical.

44. Zack’s wild at the digressive comments posted on his site. Rightly so. But, when you introduce a topic as explosive as the demographics of the Indian Muslims some will turn it into a number-guessing game, others will attempt to analyse the religio-socio-political causes underlying the high birth rate of Muslims and the motives behind it, fanatics will use the forum to air their communal hatred and others will target the fanatics to silence them, show them how puerile their beliefs are and to clear the board so that the discussion can get along on a truly rational and secular platform. But, I hasten to add, where Muslims are concerned they just can’t get rid of their irrational theological trash which they must introduce into every discussion (but it’s so easy, as demonstrated by my earlier mails, to demolish Islamic superstitions). Has it rightly been said that Islam is mere theology? I’ve yet to meet a truly secular Muslim who accepts the validity of all faiths as the varied expressions of the One Truth.

    Remember, sheer number of followers does not make a religion great. Its core content that has to be simultaneoulsy rational, intuitional, practical and realizable through direct experiences makes a religion truly great. To simply believe, just because the Quran says, that creation out of nothing is true or that heaven is some undefined place that some-how-or-the-other-exists and which is claimed to be non-physical but that has yet been described in garish physical terms (rivers of alcohol/milk, houris for free sex, etc) does not make the least sense but ranks amongst crass fictional works.

    Muslims get your act together and stop making your religious beliefs and yourselves the objects of mockery and laughter.

    Joel.

45. ZACK IS ANGRY. FOR WHAT? IS IT THAT WE GUYS HAVE JUMPED THE MAIN TOPIC AND HAVE BROUGHT IN OTHER POINTS? IS THE SUBJECT INTELLIGENT TO BEGIN WITH? IT JUST INVOLVES A GAME OF LOTTERY THAT KEEPS SPECULATING ABOUT THE TRUE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS WITH ZACK TOO JOINING IN THIS SILLY GAME OF GUESSING NUMBERS.

    WHAT HIGH AIM WILL BE ACHIEVED EVEN IF THE TRUE NUMBERS OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IS DECLARED BY THE GOVERNMENT?

    IT IS ONLY THOSE WITH LOW IQ WHO WOULD HAVE A SITE DEVOTED TO A GUESSING GAME. THE SENSELESS GUESSING GAME WILL KEEP GOING ON WITHOUT ANY DEFINITE ANSWER.

    WHEN THE TOPIC OF POPULATION NUMBERS OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IS SO VAGUE AND WHEN OTHER MUSLIM BLOKES HAVE DRAGGED IN THEIR ISLAMIC COCK AND BULL STORIES THEN WHY DOESN’T ZACK UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR OTHERS TO HIT BACK?

    I THINK ZACK’S TOPIC OF DISCUSSING POPULATION OF INDIA’S MUSLIMS IS TOO CHILDISH, IDIOTIC, UNSCIENTIFIC, NARROW AND HAS AS ITS AIM A SILLY GAME OF GUESSING THE TRUE NUMBERS OF MUSLIMS IN INDIA. GUESSES AND GUESSES AND ONLY GUESSES.

    WHAT SENSE DOES IT MAKE TO BEGIN A SITE TO JUST KEEP TOSSING BACK BACK AND FORTH SEVERAL WILD GUESSES AS TO THE TRUE POPULATION OF INDIAN MUSLIMS?

    YASHENDRA.

46. Hello every one,

    The population census 2001 conducted by the then BJP government is correct. The muslim population of india is only 12% including kashmir. Also population growth rate is decreasing or equal to that of hindus . Muslim can never overcome hindus in india. muslim can not outnumber hindus ….ok
    The population of muslims in hindu majority kerala is only 21% and malapuram district where muslims are 70% has lowest growth rate.

    hello friends, u r estimating muslim population only by cities . In case of rural areas it is difficult to find a muslim family in most of the villages….

    In tamil nadu, u can hardly see a muslim in villages. Muslim population of tamil nadu is only 4%. see the population census in detail.

    why these muslim barbarians are proud of their population. As the population increases, poverty also will increase….understant muslim fools……
    Also keep it in your mind, muslim barbarians. As science and technology is growing fastly, Islam will not exist in future. It is a religion of murderers.

    Indian muslims….bow your head…you are after all a threatened convert to islam. shame …shame….Urdu speakers……u have born to either arabs or turkist and their raped indian woman…………….

    As long as islam is in the world, there will be no peace……civilize all the muslims …that is what USA is doing ya………

    oh….bloody converts, dont be proud of your population…..be shame of your people’s illiteracy and poverty ok……….

    In tamil nadu most of the prostitutes are muslim women.

    Try to civilize your society …..ok

47. Guys, if you scroll up to the top of the page, you’ll see that my post was a correction to the following statement which appears regularly in the media:

    India is the world’s second-largest Muslim nation.

    Based on census figures, which are our best estimate, this is not true. That was the only point I wanted to make. Unfortunately, this post has brought all kinds of commenters out of the woodwork.

48. Certainly, all sorts of chaps with opposing views have cropped up on Zack’s forum as the topic is so volatile and based more on conjecture than on actual facts. When stupid fanatics like Arsalan and others have put forward their views on the merits of an increasing Indian Muslim population with all the other crude reasoning taken from Quran to justify their stupidity, then others have a right to respond. Anyway, what silly joy do you get in just guessing at demographic figures without commenting on their implications – social, economic, religious, political, etc?

    Yashendra.

49. Yashendra: I am not guessing or basing anything on conjecture. I was just correcting a mistake by Friedman. To do that, I used the most accurate figures possible: actual census.

50. Zack’s worried at being criticized for beginning a forum devoted to guessing the exact numbers of Indian Muslims. He denies he’s a part of the silly bandwagon who senselesly keep tossing forth demographic figures and keep on arguing about the authencity of the census. Then again Zack and others bring back the same quote on population numbers of Muslims in India, then Sindhi or some other chap butts in with his own suspicions and game goes on endlessly.

    Listen Zack, if you feel that the census figures are accurate, then what’s the need to seek other people’s opinions on the stale subject? If you are convinced that the census count is correct why keep up a continuous debate on this trivial issue?

    If you are not guessing, then what are doing by always butting in with your estimates, corrections and wild conjectures?

    If you were convinced about the accuracy of the demographic count, you’d open up a more intelligent avenue related to the underlying causes, consequences and motives of the growing demographic imbalance (religious or otherwise) in India.

    Why do you have to keep reminding people about your faith in the census and then open up a huge guessing game on the subject? Does it make sense, boy? Grow up.

    Anyway, how do you know that the census figures are accurate? On what evidential basis do you base your belief?

    What is your motive in beginning a discussion on such a limited but communally explosive issue?

    Yashendra

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