Reading the post on Muslims Under Progress (about American Muslim tilt to the left and how that is wrong because of the left’s support of among other things gay rights) as well as several posts on Alas, a Blog, I was reminded of a discussion Amber and I had recently. No, I am not going to talk about gay rights from the Islamic perspective.
We were talking about gay civil unions and decided that both of us were against having civil unions for gays. Why? Because what exactly is a civil union? If it is something very similar to marriage, then what quacks like a duck is a duck regardless of our word games. On the other hand, if civil unions have fewer rights and privileges than marriage, that could result in problems. For example, will civil unions be restricted to only gays? Or will heterosexual couples be allowed to get into civil unions? I can’t see a way to restrict civil unions. Thus, we’ll create another category. Now, I am with conservatives on the sanctity of marriage. I think it’s an important institution. But it seems to me that civil unions actually degrade marriage by providing another path to couples, probably both gay and straight, to share their lives.
The solution is simple. It’s gay marriage. Open up the institution of marriage to gays, but provide all the privileges of couplehood only to married couples. Let’s not dilute marriage by giving the same privileges to civil unions and couples shacking up.
Exactly my perspective.
I responded at Muslims Under Progress because as you both know, I am extremely politically active for a very left-wing candidate and because of that I am in contact with a large number of other Muslims who are doing the same. Haroon is correct that there is not much public discussion of the points that he raises, but he can rest assured that there is a great deal of private discussion. Everybody that I know who is actively supporting Kucinich has their eyes wide open. They’ve calculated the pluses and minuses for each of the candidates and determined that with Kucinich the pluses greatly outweigh the minuses, while with Bush the minuses so greatly outweigh the pluses that there are no pluses. The other candidates are somewhere in between.
I can personally vouch for at least 100 people on this and they include some people whose names would be well-known in the community. I doubt that this is a unique sample in any way.
I cannot of course speak for Muslim supporters of Dean (the only other candidate with any support to speak of) and as to my thoughts about Dean, I will be polite and keep those to myself.
Al-Mujajabah: I think Haroon is somewhat mistaken in his post on Muslims Under Progress. Most voters think about a lot of issues when deciding to support a candidate. Most of the time the candidate one supports does not have the same positions on all issues as any specific voter. It’s always a compromise about deciding what is more important.
In my case, however, I am a social liberal and a moderate on economics/finance issues. So supporting a Democrat makes perfect sense.
Absolutely. No one can deny that American Muslims made a huge mistake in 2000, and there’s been and continues to be a lot of discussion and debate about how to avoid doing it again.
I’m sure that the Muslims for Dean are no different from the Muslims for Kucinich, it’s just that I haven’t discussed issues with any Muslims for Dean since none of them have come on by, so I can’t speak for what they’re thinking, only guess.
I don’t really understand why some people act like homosexuality is the greatest threat to society that’s out there so that it should trump every other consideration. Me, I’m a lot more concerned about what’s going on in our inner cities, to name one example. Or about domestic violence. Or a dozen other things.
In any case, the United States is a non-Muslim country and a secular state. Non-Muslims are not required to be and must not be forced to live under Islamic laws or rules. Instead, they may live under their own laws and rules. The fact that Islamic law forbids sodomy and restricts marriage to between a man and a woman has no relevance to whether American law should do the same. Muslims are not forced to engage in either, and Muslims will not be forced to give religious sanction to either. It’s lawful in the U.S. for Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men, but imams are not required to preside over such marriages. Same here. Just as we refrain from that, we can refrain from this. It’s more offensive to most Muslims’s sensibilities that it exists, but it’s the same principle. People who can’t deal with that would be happier living in another country, because that is part and parcel of living in the U.S.
I also agree with you that purely in terms of civil rights in the U.S., civil unions are a kind of “second class citizenship” and full rights of civil marriage should be available to all.
Al-Muhajabah: I think there were quite a few factors in the 2000 election. Bush and his people, for example Norquist, courted Muslim organizations and talked about a few issues important to some Arab Americans, e.g. secret evidence. Also, Pakistanis have always been pro-Republican because of the perception that Republican congressmen and Presidents have had a more pro-Pakistan foreign policy. Some were against Al Gore because they thought he was more pro-Israel (a stupid idea in my opinion).
The 2000 election was the first time Muslims in the US tried to organize for a Presidential election. So some mistakes were inevitable, but they made more than they should have. This includes what kind of American Muslim leaders came forward.
Another very different Muslim demographic is the African American Muslims. They voted overwhelmingly Democratic just like all African Americans. There has always been a big disconnect between African American and immigrant (Arab, South Asian) Muslim communities in all areas including politics.
On the politics and homosexuality issue, I don’t understand or like single-issue voting.
i’m not a muslim, though if zack is a muslim, perhaps i’m classified as a a quasi-muslim 😉 “muslim issues” do interest me because the gov. doesn’t care that i’m a professing atheist, i was born in a muslim majority country, have a muslim name and and “look” muslim. but it has always irritated me in 2000 how immigrant or 1st generation muslims were speaking for ‘the community,’ and the mainstream media didn’t even ask black american converts and their children to come on shows. yeah, we get racially profiled on planes, and secret evidence sucks, but look at the crap that black muslims have to deal with in the inner city (though many black muslims are middle-class obviously).
recently a friend of mine had be alpha test a “muslim singles” website. it was targeted at 20somethings. the front page had a photo montage of young “muslims.” basically a mix of mid-eastern & south asian people with one malaysian looking girl. out of the 10 people none of them were black. i sent a bitchy email (in a friendly manner) to the guy who was starting up the site and he apologized, but he didn’t know any black muslim gen-xers well enough to ask them for a picture.
i told him to find a dark-skinned south asian guy with a shaved head and somewhat non-caucasian features then….
razib:
i’m not a muslim, though if zack is a muslim, perhaps i’m classified as a a quasi-muslim 😉
Hey, you doubt my religion?
The main reason I’m on the left is because I don’t tend to mix religion with politics as much as others. I think foreign policy and certain policies (Social Security and Medicare) are far more important than gay marriage, which I oppose. The Republican Party’s stand on most issues (church and state, economy, etc) has always been disastrous, which is why I oppose them. And lately, a certain block of its supporters has been reduced to Islam-bashing.
My grandmother is pretty conservative, yet she curses whenever Bush’s face shows up on TV.
Gays? we are people to right? well bush has no right saying we cant get marred i think hes afrade of us. hes an ass hole an a son of a bitch of all things he thinks he can play god and say I made Adam and eve NOT ADAM AND STEAVE well i think he made adam and stave and eve just to be fare so bush i think he can suck cock.
laura: While I am in favor of gay marriage, I don’t appreciate you using obcenities on my weblog.
I think that marriage is a contract between two individuals. A marriage doesn’t need recognization from State but I also think that the State should respect the contract between two individuals if they want to share their lives and stuff with each other then the state should provide them equal oppurtunities. Thinking that Muslims supporting Dean or any one else is a sign of Muslim support for same sex marriage is ridiculous. Muslim mind set is not liberal enough to accept new things quickly. They are going to waste decades just arguing about it. And after the decades they would eventually accept it. Like in Sub continent they had difficulty accepting english as a way to learn new technologies and then after wasting decades they eventually accepted it. But it is not going to happen in near future Muslims need time (read decades) 🙂
What is Marriage
Marriage is two people who come together as one. Not any two people- A Man and a Woman. God created Adam and then Eve. It’s amazing that a Man and a Woman can produce a child. No other human combination can. Every man and every woman have the same God-given right to marry and to produce children. It is not right to change the definition of marriage to fit alternative lifestyles. The only correct thing to do is to ask the individual whether they would choose their right to a family or choose their right to live an alternative lifestyle according to their sexual appetites. There will always be the question as to whether homosexuals have a choice in their sexual behaviors: however it is unanswerable. There will always be those who argue on both sides (including “recovered” homosexuals).
The bottom line is that every man and woman in this country do have the same right to marry-which is a union with an individual of the opposite sex. Homosexuals are not asking for a right that we all have, they are asking for special privileges. And many in this country believe that making these special interest lifestyles into laws will only serve to further disintegrate the family structure, which is already in dire straits.
If anyone is still interested in what God has to say on the subject, here are some Bible verses which make this debate pretty clear: I Corinthians 6:9 – Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be deceived neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. – 1 Timothy 1:10 – And immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.
You all have been elected into a very important position. Is it more important to you to make a very vocal MINORITY happy or simply to do what is right? This country was founded on solid Christian values and principles and the new policy seems to be to go with the flow wherever that may lead. It is time we stop buying into the manipulative idea that it is politically incorrect to say that wrong is wrong. Once you blur the lines, who is going to make up the new boundaries? Because I can guarantee you that there will be soon to follow another group on the homosexuals’ heels who will also want the special privileges. You can easily say now that we would never let a man marry a boy, but years ago we would have said that about a man and a man. Once you stand down your job as guard of the principles of this society, it will be very difficult to stop the landslide. Someone has to stand up and be strong. I send this to all of you because the Lord Jesus Christ has put this in my heart. Yes, I am a Christian. But I also don’t believe that you have to share religious beliefs in order to have some conception of what the destruction of morality does to any society.
Rich Nolen Miller
Donna Marie Miller
Walk by Faith not by Sight
Nolen: Since I am not a Christian, your argument falls flat for me. 🙂